Jason Herman, CEO & President of OnePoint Business Solutions joins us on the Conquer Local Podcast to chat with George Leith and share tips on scaling your business, how mistakes lead to growth, and building relationships with clients. With an experience of over 30 years of startup, operations, and training experience, Jason created an industry-standard practice metrics formula used on three continents by over 500 practices, and is the co-author of two best-selling practice manuals, “The Meat and Potatoes of Chiropractic Marketing” and “501 Ads for Chiropractors”.

He is the co-founder of the Global Marketing Mastermind Group featuring members in continents – North America, Europe, and Africa – to synergize SEO, SEM, and Social strategies for a worldwide audience.

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Introduction

George: This is the Conquer Local podcast, a show about billion-dollar sales leaders, marketers leading local economic growth, and entrepreneurs that have created their dream organizations. They want to share their secrets, giving you the distilled version of their extraordinary feats. Our hope is that with the tangible takeaways from each episode, you can rewire, rework, and reimagine your business.I’m George Leith, and on this episode, we welcome Jason Herman. Jason is the CEO, and president of OnePoint Business Solutions, with over 30 years of startup, operations, and training experience, he’s an internationally recognized lecturer, consultant, author, and social media influencer. Living in Maryland, with his wife and daughters, he’s co-founded numerous organizations over his career. He’s the co-founder of a healthcare staffing and operations firm and created the industry-standard practice metrics formulas used on three continents, by over 500 chiropractic practices. He developed operational, and marketing programs for hundreds of consulting clients throughout North America, Europe, and Asia, and co-authored two best-selling practice manuals, the Meat and Potatoes of Chiropractic Marketing, and 501 Ads For Chiropractors. His consulting clients’ offices cared for over 52,000 patients, and more than 1.1 million patient visits across North America alone during one calendar year. The winner of the Facebook Power Admin award, and hundreds of thousands of members in high engagement groups, across diverse subject verticals. Jason is the co-founder of the Global Marketing Mastermind Group, with members in North America, Europe, and Africa, to synergize SEO, SEM, and social strategies for a worldwide audience. Get ready, conquerors, Jason Herman is coming up next, on this week’s episode of the Conquer Local podcast. Jason Herman, this week on the Conquer Local podcast. Here’s the question, it’s in my notes, I’ve got to ask. You are from Maryland. We covered a bunch of this in the intro, by the way, you are from Maryland. Were you ever a spy at some point in time, in your background?

Jason: So, I’m originally from the New York, New Jersey tri-state area. I lived in Maryland for the LA latest half of my life, and my education is in political-military analysis, and history, and the very first part of my career, I spent as a researcher for the government, and my principal task was, to look at data, whether it’s visual data, or news data, or historical data, and try to read the tea leaves, and see what was going to happen next, based on what happened previously. So, it actually turned out to be a good jumping-off point for a business career in which I never had a single business class, not even a single credit. And I should have, I’m not saying, “Oh, that’s not necessary.” But there are certain underpinnings that that does give, but data analytics, and objective analysis of data, without a preconceived agenda, is really useful in so many different areas, that had helped build our company. A couple of companies.

George: Well, thank you for that. And in our show notes, it said, “Jason was a spy.” That was all I had for context from our team. But, I like asking that question, because spy is cool, because I’m a huge James Bond fan, but here’s the reason why I bring it up. In earlier parts of my career, I started in on-air broadcasting, and as a journalist, and I use the term loosely, you start doing interviews, and interviews like we’re on right now, and you start asking questions, and you’re entering always with a curious mindset. You probably have done some research ahead of time if you know what you’re doing so that you can guide the conversation with some insights. And then I fast forward 35 some odd years in my sales career, and go, “Yeah, all those interviews that I did early in my broadcast career made me a better sales professional, because understanding the customer is 95% of this entire battle.” So, what I also see in my notes, is you and I are going to have witty banter for the next few minutes here, in this episode around, I’d like to get your lens, Jason, around how you see customer obsession, and working with clients in your organization. So, tell us a little bit about your organization, and what you do.

Jason: The philosophy behind it, going back to what you just said about the customer, the experience so to speak, starts off with an agreement between all the principles, that everything you do is directed towards building a relationship, not completing a transaction. If you start off with that principle, and you don’t do anything to betray that principle, and everything you do is meant to support that principle, you’ll be good. You’ll have bumps in the road, you’ll have some disappointments, you’ll have some wins, you’ll have some losses, but you’ll always come back to the fact that we’re building a relationship, and relationships cannot be manufactured, and they can’t be done with shortcuts. So, there’s an old saying, “Friendship is a measure of what you’ve been through together.” And whether it’s me, with my clients, or me with Vendasta, or whoever, or me and you, or anybody, it’s that we go into it with the right mindset, that we want to grow together. And then we just… I want to say, and then we go out with the goal of making as many mistakes as possible because that’s how we’re going to get to learn what we need to learn, and everything else.

George: Well, that’s interesting that you bring that up, because if we’ve been doing this job long enough, serving customers, and being professional entrepreneurs, I guess, I think all entrepreneurs are salespeople, and you do have a lot of mistakes. And one of the things that I like to… When I’m talking to a new salesperson, that’s entering the industry for the first time, you’ve got to have a high level of integrity. And that integrity also has this line that I have, where you own your shit. Meaning, you set up that relationship with the customer, and we know there’s going to be growing pains, and we know there’s going to be challenges and we’re going to do everything we can to make sure that those don’t impact this. But, if there is a challenge we need to know about it, so let’s call it out. Here’s my number, call me immediately if there are ever any problems, or, and then on the vice versa, I call a customer when I see they’re heading to a disaster, and tell them that we’ve got to rethink about this. So I love that analogy that you have, that we’re going to make a bunch of mistakes, and through those mistakes is where the growth is going to happen.

Jason: Yeah, if you’re in a business relationship, and you’re starting off, whether you’re hiring somebody, or somebody’s hiring you, whatever, and the other person tells you that they’ve been a success at everything they’ve done, walk away from them. If they tell you if they’ve never made a mistake, run. And that’s really because you’re interested in real people. My brother and I had a very successful chiropractic firm for a couple of decades, and when we would interview people, chiropractors to work for us in our various offices, we would always ask them if they’d ever failed a class in school, and they all had. It is really tough schooling, neuroanatomy, biochemistry, and all this really tough stuff. And if somebody said, “Oh, no, never failed a class. Never failed a class.” We wouldn’t hire them, because they didn’t have… It’s not a requirement, but it didn’t have… It makes you hunger for more, and it reminds you that you are not the center of the world. So, in order to build a relationship, I think, and I’ll always go back to this, relationship. One of the things that actually attracted me to Vendasta in the first place was the word partner. It’s used a lot, and it’s used facetiously in a lot of contexts, but partnership means to me, at least, “As you go, we go, as you go, I go. When you bleed, I bleed. When you hurt, I hurt.” So, we’re going to learn together. Nelson Mandela said, “I never lose. I either win, or I learn.” So, we’re going to learn together, and we’re going to win together. And when it comes to our clients, the businesses that we work for, we take that more seriously than anything, and with always a mindset of, “This is another brick in the wall of the relationship that we’re building, so let’s make sure we do things with that in mind.”

George: In the preamble, Jason, I talked about some of your accomplishments in the chiropractic business over the years, and there’s a bunch of numbers in there, and obviously, you’ve been doing this for a while. How important were those learnings, when you moved into creating your own organization, in what you’re doing today?

Jason: I would say there are two parts to that. One is that it was vitally important in every way. I couldn’t have gotten from the Baltic, and Mediterranean, to New York and Tennessee without being where I was. And the other half of that is like Tony Robinson says, “Biography is not destiny.” So, even though those are the building blocks to get me here, they also remind me of all the other things that still have left to be learned, and if I go to bed without learning, I wasted a day.

George: Now, one thing that I saw in these notes, and it comes from your bio, and the bio always tells me a lot about the guests that we’re going to have on this show. But it says in some of the key performance indicators that you cared for 52,000 patients, and more than 1.1 million patient visits across North America, I don’t actually see too much around how many practices were involved in that. It seems like you were treating the patients of every one of the practices as if they were yours.

Jason: So, that’s a great question. I am not a chiropractor. I’m a third of three brothers. My two older brothers are chiropractors, which is how I got the opportunity, AKA, roped into that world, and I was asked to come, and principally run operations, and then to do patient education. So, what that developed into was a system of marketing operations, and training that we spread to practitioners all across North America, actually, even outside North America, and just pulling in their numbers, we could assess that we had helped out so many people transitively. And that again goes back to, we’re always in it for the long game. There’s an old saying in chiropractic, or there’s a joke, how many chiropractics does it take the screw in a light bulb? And the answer is just one, but he has to turn it a thousand times. So, in this instance, it’s the same thing, whether we’re talking in our business about SEO, digital branding, or social media. You don’t plant the corn on Saturday, and harvest it on Sunday. It’s, you’re building a brand, a relationship. In the case of our clients, the SMBs, and small businesses, they’re building a relationship with their audience, we’re building a relationship with them, the client, and we keep feeding that. So, we were stressed through patient education, and chiropractic, it’s a simple process, that’s repeated again, and again, and again, for the purpose of maintaining health. And any good process has those same building blocks, doesn’t matter what it is.

George: I love those learnings, and there definitely is an analogy. There’s a comparison that can be made there because a chiropractor doesn’t just crack that thing hard once, it’s a series of treatments, in order to get the outcome that they’re looking for. And the same thing when it comes to building out that digital marketing campaign. Now, the topic of this episode, as I mentioned off the top, is scalability. And I find a lot of people asking this question. In fact, I was in a two-and-a-half-hour meeting with a CEO yesterday, it was all about, “How do we scale this thing?” I’d love to learn from you. At what moment do you start thinking about scale? And, are there any indicators? Let’s just start there. At what moment does a business owner start thinking about scale, in your opinion?

Jason: In my opinion, that moment happens when you say, “I have a product, a service, a theory, a thought, or something that more people need to be exposed to. I need to get this out to the masses.” The masses could be anything. It could be the public, could be small businesses. It could be anything, it could be starting a lemonade stand or a religion. You want to, “I got this great thing, and I need to get it to more people.” Now, where scalability… The critical point where it either explodes, or it goes off the rails, is when the powers that be, the people that created that critical mass in the first place, decide which elements of it can be set aside as they grow, or which things have to be able to be duplicated, to scale while retaining the magic that created the special something in the first place. So, I don’t think there’s a single person that ever walked into a McDonald’s and said, “I am about to eat the greatest hamburger in the history of meat.” Okay? On the other hand, McDonald’s never decided to do that. They never said, “We are making the greatest hamburger.” They said, “We want to make a fast hamburger or a duplicatable hamburger.” Their scaled quality was speed, consistency, or whatever. So, in the case of OnePoint, Vendasta, Fred’s Lemonade Stand, or Mary’s Bakery, it’s, “Okay. If I have a hundred locations or 50 more locations, I may not have the exact same frosting, or I may, or this, or that. What am I willing to give up for size?” This is all going back to my relationship thought. So, let’s say you wanted to do 20 more podcasts. Well, you could give a script. You could give that menu to 20 more hosts, and say, “Just go do what George does.” But are there elements that cannot be trained? Unfortunately, in my career, I found that the most important parts of scaling, are the hardest parts to duplicate, and that’s where you [inaudible 00:14:38].

George: What you are articulating, I think is really important for people to understand. There is going to be a give and take from what you’re delivering today, to reach scalability. And I find that some people have a really hard time with that. They built the foundations on X, Y, and Z, and you’re saying, “Z’s not going to be in here anymore if we want to do 100 of these.” And they’re like, “Oh.” And then when you go back to that customer base, they’re like, “No, we won’t accept it without Z.” So, really understanding the components of that is important. Now, the other piece that I wanted to get to is, do you find that as the organization scales, and you’ve done some amazing scaling in your career, some of the people that you brought to the dance aren’t necessarily the people that you leave the party with. That it’s not the same audience at the end of the day when you move into that scalability.

Jason: I heard a story a while back that Lionel Richie, who had, I guess, a number one song, the song was Three Times A Lady, was many years ago. The song was about his mother because his father had explained to him that his mother was actually three different people. There was the woman he dated, the woman he married, and the mother of his children, and those three women had basically nothing in common.

Jason: And you have to be able to grow into each role, and the key part, to your point, is how you make the determinations along the way, that the people that are on your team, or the resources that you’ve been making use of to get to, from point A to point C, now have to switch to get to G, or X. Very rarely do you see, like Microsoft, for example, Steve Ballmer became the CEO of Microsoft, and he was like, employee number one, I think he was the first guy they hired.

Jason: Well, that happens sometimes, and sometimes not. So, sometimes the person that was the night janitor at your first office, becomes your head of marketing, or maybe they don’t, or maybe they become whatever. So, you as a leader, all the leaders, but you, as the major… The prime mover has to, again, go back to data, have to be able to make objective, dispassionate, timely assessments of all your resources, your people on your team, your partners, and your assets, and keep deploying them, and redeploying them, based on what the needs are, not based on your adherence to some soon to be an outdated model.

George: No, and I love the expectation that you’re setting with our audience, because too many times, I sit across from entrepreneurs, and like, “Okay, we want to take this thing we’re doing over here, and scale it to infinity, and beyond.” And then you start to rip it apart and say, “Okay, how are you going to resource this? These components right here, you’ve got these resources. How do we find 1,000 of those?” “Oh, well, I hadn’t really thought about that. Is there a way that I could just automate that, and not have to add those resources?” You’re like, “Then you’re not going to have the thing that people are buying. You’re going to have something that’s different.” And I love that you’re calling that out. Some of the components, it’s going to be a trade.

Jason: There’s a saying from the movie Sabrina, where Sabrina Fairchild says to Harrison Ford, “Sometimes more, isn’t better. It’s just more.” And if you’re scaling, you have to ask yourself, “Why am I scaling? Am I being bigger just for the sake of being bigger?” Look, if you say, “Look, I just want cash. I just want more money.” Okay. Well, be honest with yourself. That’s fine. We live in that society, and there’s nothing about that. On the other hand, if you are purloining your craft, if you are bastardizing, or corrupting your special thing in order to get… It’s like Aesop’s fable of the dog and the meat. You lose everything. So, you could wind up losing the size, and the substance, and that’s scaling for the sake of scaling, anything done just for the sake of doing it is… You hear people sometimes, say, “Oh, why did you go to Bali or something?” And say, “Oh, I wanted to be able to say I had been there.” I always tell people, “Just say it then. Just lie. What’s the difference? You could say anything you want. What you should want to do is actually have the experience.” So, when you’re scaling, you want to ask yourself first, step number one in the scale project is why? Why do I want to do this? And that’s something, I think a lot of people just don’t do.

George: No, and that’s the famous Simon Sinek book, Start With Why. And I like to ask people, “Why are you in this business?” It’s a great question, and I think we should, as entrepreneurs, and sales professionals, we should probably ask ourselves that quarterly, if not maybe even more often. Like, “Why am I doing this?” Because sometimes you are why changes.

George: And I find that sometimes with organizations, it’s like, “Okay, why do you want to scale?” “Oh, well, these parameters have changed, and I have, now these goals have been given to me,” or whatever it might be, and that sometimes is the catalyst. But I hear, and I’m reading between the lines, maybe sometimes you don’t need to scale, because you should just maybe find four or five more customers. Is it an either-or? Or can it be an and, where we scale these components, and some of them, we don’t?

Jason: I think that a lot of times, people are scaling because the expectation in our society is, the old stupidity of, “Well, that’s how we keep score. The one with the most toys wins.” Or whatever frigging bullshit that is. But if somebody asks me why I want to scale, and I’m using it as a future tense, and as a past tense, because like you said, it’s never the same thing two days in a row, first of all, I think I’m better at what I do than what anybody that has ever done it. I think I do it differently than anybody has ever done it, and that it’s my particular brand. And the second part is, that I have had the greatest mentors, the greatest teachers, the greatest coaches, the greatest partners, and friends. Every day that I am in existence in business, I am paying back a debt to them, that I could never fully repay. I am honoring what they taught me, by bringing it forward. When I see people that I have trained or developed, pushing forward their own businesses, or their own things, I cannot describe, and I’m usually not at a loss for words, I cannot describe the joy, and satisfaction that… Because scaling to me means, something bigger than yourself, and the ultimate something bigger than yourself is something that will last after you’re gone.

George: No, and it’s a good lesson, and I think the people that I want to really pay attention to that lesson, are the sales professionals that are still doing the, “Want to buy a watch?” Transactional thing, because you and I both know, that a sales professional is not long for the world, because it’s going away. And, they’ve been living a very unfulfilled life, because the fulfillment comes from, “I get a commission check because I sold that widget, and that’s it.” Whereas, when you’re really, truly partnered up with somebody, and I love the fact that you called it out, that word is overused. I could throw in other words, like transparent, honest, what’s the other one? AI, I love that buzzword. We got all these buzzwords, but in a true partnership, you get that fulfillment, and it’s a hell of a lot more important than the paycheck.

Jason: There’s a musical which has just been brought back again, for the however many times, the Broadway called the Music Man, and in the Music Man, Harold Hill goes, he’s one of these traveling salesmen, and he goes from town to town, defrauding people out of money, and eventually he gets caught. Well, in today’s day and age, it’s the exact opposite. Your reputation will follow you everywhere. The days of… Your name, at your brand as currency, is multiplying in its impact, and it’s your inability to outrun it, geometrically every day. The whole sum total of reputation management, as we know it. Because of that, not only do you have to trumpet your successes through social media, and everything else, and make sure the world knows how great you are, but when you do drop the ball, and studies have shown this, the impact of a one-star review on Google, that is answered quickly, and professionally, and contritely, by a business owner, has a more positive impact on potential buyers than a five-star review that is ignored. Everybody within the sound of my voice has to understand what I just said as religious doctrine. I’ve had customers, and clients, all the time. We’ve all had them. “I don’t want a Google profile, because I don’t want to take a chance of people giving me a one-star review.” My response? “Well, it’s an interesting theory. You’re an idiot.” Okay? Because number one, and number two, you must not have that much faith in what you do. We’re all going to have bad blood. It’s how you deal with it. “I’m not going to get married, because I don’t want to risk having an argument with my wife.” I mean, what kind of nonsense? That’s the relationship. Again, it all goes back to the relationship. Reputation management, relationship management. And I counsel people, I train the small business owners in how to deal with negative reviews, and how-to after you’ve dealt with the review, then go back, and do what they call in the military, and after-action report, do and an AAR, and say, “Let’s learn from this,” right? I either win, or I learn. You could do both. And the last part I’ll say about that is, there are 32 teams in major leagues of a sport, let’s say 30 teams, or whatever. One team wins a championship. Does that mean 31 teams wasted their season? No, not only that, but the championship team goes back to practice after that. So, all 32 teams acknowledge the exact same need, that tomorrow has to be better than yesterday, based on what we learned today.

George: No, that’s great advice, and I love the way that you’ve discussed scalability, because I don’t think it’s all roads are… All lights are green, and we’re going to run down the scalability road. I think there are some questions that business owners have to ask, and I love the fact that you’re interrogating, “Why scale? What are you trying to accomplish? Have you ran any tests? Could you scale what you have? What tools are you going to need? What solutions?” There’s a lot more that goes into… And again, it’s a buzzword. It’s just thrown around randomly. Sometimes people are like, “Oh, you need to scale.” I’m like, “Okay. I don’t know if that’s where we need to go with this. Let’s look deeper on that.” I can sense that you’re finding that too, when that word comes up.

Jason: It’s funny, in the business world, within three days’ time, you’ll hear something for the first time, like the word scalability, and within three days, it’s on everybody’s tongue. I’m a movie guy, as you can tell, I love movies, and there’s a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, where a guy says to Indiana Jones, “Ask yourself why you seek the cup of Christ. Is it for His glory, or for yours?” And if you’re scaling, I think the first people you want to ask, if you’re scaling X business into triple X business, ask your clients. “So, I’m thinking of growing my business, I’m thinking of expanding it. What are the most important things about what I’ve done with you, for you, that you think I could bring to other people? And what do you think I could leave behind?” And I guess the moral of the story is, if it’s all about ego, unfortunately, I think the war is over. Style beat substance, about 40 years ago, and the war is dead. But, the substance might maybe be on life support, and if you scale with substance, there’s a buzzword for you, you scale with substance, have to copyright that before this gets published. But, if you scale with substance, and if you scale with purpose, you’re lost in translation items will not be such that they will corrupt what made you special in the first place.

George: No, and you should trademark that, because you nailed something there, that it is possible, there’s going to be gives and gets. You’re going to maybe have to give up a couple of things, but if you always start with a customer, I don’t think you can ever go wrong. So, going back to your clients, and having that conversation with them, I think, is quite interesting. I love telling stories, as you could tell, because I’ve told a bunch of stories, but one story is, I’m watching a younger sales rep craft a deal, and there is a deal to be had with the customer, because the customer is the one asking for either more volume, more solutions, whatever it might be, and the rep’s struggling with that, going, “Well, we can’t do what we’ve been doing for the last year and a half, if we do this other thing the customer’s looking for.” Ask them. Ask them if they’re willing to give that up, to get the result that they’re looking for, with this new thing. And like, “Oh, yeah, I guess I could ask them.” But the trepidation I found from the salesperson came into, “What if I blow the whole bloody thing up by asking that question?” So, there is, to your point, there’s science, and then there’s the art of having that conversation with the client, to see if there are some components you can leave out of the deal.

Jason: Wow. You really just drilled into a gas line with the word trepidation. One of my mentors, Ted Hilsen, said he has a bumper sticker on his car that said, “Fearful people do stupid things.” And I think that salespeople are afraid to ask for a deal, they’re afraid to close, because of the fear of rejection. “Hey, don’t worry about it.” Like Charlie, Tremendous Jones used to say in the sales seminars, “You think you’re going to fail? Guess what? You’re right. So now deal with that. Okay? And by the way, you’re sitting here at a seminar, or whatever your problems were at home, they’re getting worse.” So, just go do the thing. And by the way, it’s funny, we talked about fear. People say, “Well, George, what if I do this?” And I’m in trepidation of failing. Well, let me ask you a question, again I’m going back to the sports teams analogy. If you say to a client, you meet with the client three times, you put together a proposal, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they say no, and they don’t hire you. Did you fail? Well, I don’t know. Did you learn stuff? You got better at proposing, you learned what not to do, and you learned what doesn’t work. Thomas Edison said, “I found 100,000 ways not to make a light bulb.” So, if the only measure of success is that you signed the deal, you’re in big trouble. That’s a binary world that will lead you to heart disease, and failure, and everything else. And instead, say, “What can we take away from that?” And by the way, here’s another thing about that. Let’s say you walk into a deal, and somebody shows up a lay down. In sales, they call it a laydown. Somebody walks in and says, “Here George, here’s my checkbook. Just take my money and give me…” I don’t know. Do you feel great about that? Was that really a win for you? I don’t know. So, it’s like, what’s that saying? You’re born on a third, and you think you hit a triple? I don’t know. Are you so proud of that? It’s like being proud of how tall you are. Really? Did you work hard on that? Did you go to school for that?

George: Oh, Jason, I love it. Jason Herman, the CEO, and president of OnePoint Business Solutions. So many golden nuggets in this broadcast. I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us on the show today, and teaching us about, when do we make the decision to scale certain components of our business?

Jason: Oh, I’m happy to be here, and I appreciate your wisdom, and leadership on the call, George, and I look forward to more opportunities to hear you on broadcast and to listen to further episodes of this, where I can learn from others.

Conclusion

George: I always love having a guest like Jason, that’s so colorful, and you can see his passion and his belief in the takeaways. When you take a step back and think about the mistakes you’ve made, I just, I love that, because the mistakes lead to growth, and we’re never going to get it right, and by the way, we’ve been talking about this for years, our customers are more educated than ever, and they know that you don’t always knock it out of the park at every at-bat. So, taking those learnings, being authentic when you’re speaking to the customer, speaking about the fact that there will be challenges, and you’re going to be there to help them, guide them through that, you acknowledge the fact that everything is going to be perfect, and you’re there to build that partnership, or build the relationship. And part of building that relationship is being human with your customers. It’s about the win-win, and lose-lose. So, treating that customer like you like to be treated. It’s one of the oldest sayings in sales, but Jason brought it home with a number of analogies today that really hit home with me, and I hope that it did for you, as well. We want to build relationships with our clients, and that’s where we’re really going to drive success. I love this line from Jason, “Sometimes more isn’t better. Sometimes it’s just more.” If you like Jason’s episode discussing scalability, let’s continue the conversation, and check out episode 365, with the queen bee, Janice Christopher, ideal customer, and saying, “No.” Please subscribe, and leave us a review wherever you get your podcast, and thanks for joining us this week, on the Conquer Local podcast. My name is George Leith. I’ll see you when I see you.