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Every job is a sales job but nobody wants to be a “salesperson”. Even right now, we are trying to sell you on this episode through a cleverly written description and perhaps some great anecdotes from the episode. We are all salespeople- so, how do we recognize these processes and become better?
This week’s guest is an internationally renowned business and motivational speaker and is the Author of the Wall Street Journal Bestseller, Every Job is a Sales Job: How to Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work. Cindy McGovern aka “Dr. Cindy” is the Founder, CEO, and First Lady of Sales at Orange Leaf Consulting. She is an expert in the areas of sales, leadership, and management, and has a Doctorate in Organizational Communication. Dr. Cindy helps take the ‘ick’ out of sales and empowers people to embrace their inner 5-year-old to use the art of selling to achieve their personal and professional goals.
In this episode, George Leith and Dr. Cindy go over her 5 steps in becoming a better salesperson:
- Creating a plan for success
- Looking for opportunities
- Listening and establishing trust
- Asking for what you want
- Following up with gratitude
George: Thank you for joining us this week on another edition of the Conquer Local Podcast. It’s a privilege to bring you Dr. Cindy McGovern, CEO and First Lady of Sales at Orange Leaf Consulting. Cindy has a background as a university professor in communication. And then she started to do some consulting work and got into the sales business. She’s authored a best-selling book Wall Street Journal bestseller to be exact “Every Job is a Sales Job: How to Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work”. And when I read the book, one of the things that jumped out at me, this is a great book for not only the new seller but even for the seasoned seller. You’ll notice in a few moments Cindy is an impeccable communicator and her passion for the professionalism of sales and what you need to succeed in sales will come out as you hear the goodness of Cindy McGovern’s Every Job is a Sales Job. We’re gonna find out about the art of selling the win at work next on the Conquer Local Podcast. Joining us today on the Conquer Local Podcast, Dr. Cindy McGovern, the CEO and First Lady of Sales at Orange Leaf Consulting. Cindy, good to have you on the show today.
Cindy: So excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, George.
George: Cindy, you are the author of, and I love this title because I truly believe this. “Every Job is a Sales Job: How to Use the Art of Selling to Win at Work”. Tell us about how you arrived at this amazing book that you wrote and that’s a pretty bold statement around every job being a sales job.
Cindy: Yeah. And thank you for saying that because it is a bold statement and it’s something that I had learned through life. And it’s actually the book that I wish somebody had given me when I was like 18. Because I had this aversion to sales and had this completely different concept of what it was. And then all of a sudden, you hit your 30s and you’re like, wait a second every job actually a sales, why didn’t anybody tell me this?
Every Job is a Sales Job: Explained
George: Well, when we look at that at a high level, explain to me and I read through the book and I’ve read through your material online, you’ve got a very unique way of explaining your statement of every job is a sales job.
Cindy: So I believe that every job is a sales job because number one, we’re selling ourselves. I mean, if you’re gainfully employed, you sold someone on something, right? They hired you. But we’re also selling ourselves every day with regard to our personal branding. You’re selling yourself to your colleagues, your clients, your customers, everyone else. But I truly believe that sales is simply helping somebody else get what they need if you got an opportunity to help. And I like helping people. So it was an easy sell as they say.
George: I was in a meeting recently our CEO said selling is helping. And I looked at the eyes of some of our new young salespeople and they were like, oh, I can buy that.
Cindy: Yeah, it’s a different context. So often people think of sales as pushing, or I have to sell you on something. And I don’t necessarily buy into that. I actually think that true sales in a more consultative approach is inviting people to buy. It’s not pushing, it’s actually opening and inviting and pulling them to see, Hey, is this something that could help you? So it’s really a totally different concept to kind of think of yourself as the buyer versus the seller.
George: So before you became this author I wouldn’t mind just getting a bit of the bio because it’s a pretty impressive and I did mention off the top it’s doctor and you spent some time as a professor as well. So can we talk a little bit about your history?
Cindy: Absolutely. So my Ph.D. is in communication and I was a college professor for a few years. And then I started consulting in the summer as many professors do. And I realized truthfully that I liked the adult population more than the 18 to 22-year-olds. So decided, Hey, wait for a second, maybe I should do this. And fast forward went to work for a consulting firm and I was doing more training and leadership development. And about six months into that job, my boss came to me and said, “Hey, we’re gonna put you in a sales role.” And I gasped and thought, oh my God, my life is over. I’m gonna get fired ’cause there’s no way to do this. And he said a phrase and I talk about it in the book as you saw, he said, “If you can learn to sell, it will change your life.” And as a 20 something-year-old, I of course rolled my eyes. And I was like, oh, that guy telling me this is gonna change my life whatever it absolutely did. And I realized I had been selling my entire life. I just didn’t call it sales. And then I got fully into the sales role, left started my own company 13 years ago. And I’ve literally dedicated my entire career to helping non salespeople embrace their salesperson within and then helping salespeople to actually shorten their sales cycle by leveraging their skill sets.
George: I’ve been thinking a lot about today’s episode because I’ve been doing this a long time and I’ve got a lot of strong opinions loosely held I’d like to say, but in your experience of working with organizations through, before the book and the consulting, and then now after being an author, are you finding that a lot of people have a preconceived notion of sales and it kind of relates to some used car type tactic thing. I always go to that. I apologize to use car sales folks. I think it’s a very noble profession as well, but why do you think people have this lens of shyster for lack of a different word as part of selling?
Why 5-Year-Olds are the Best Salespeople
Cindy: Yeah. So I actually have this like avatar in my head of that salesperson because that’s everybody’s idea. And I call him Tommy two thumbs. And it is that used car sales guy with the white shoes and the plaid pants and coming across the lot with a thumbs up, Hey, let me help you out. And we literally think of that guy so often when we think of that word sales. I mean, I’m truly am on this mission to change the way that people look at sales. And by the time we’re done, we may need a new word because people have such a negative connotation. They have this ache factor associated with it. But if people could truly recognize that they’d been selling their whole lives, they’re really good at it. I mean, gosh, we were all five at one point, right? Five-year-olds are literally the best salespeople on the planet. They’re singularly focused on a goal. They won’t take no for an answer. We were all five. Just embrace that inner five-year-old and leverage it.
George: I got to ask about this because I love this from the book where you embrace your inner child because that five-year-old is a great salesperson. I think I know the answer, but I wanna hear it from you is part of that because, at five, we also ask another question a lot? Why, why, why, why, why. We wanna know, we wanna understand more.
Cindy: Yes, and that’s it is. Is the curiosity of the five-year-old is actually the magic of a sales process. And we lose that it as adults. We kind of lose the curiosity or a lot of salespeople shift and they think, oh, I have to tell them, tell them, tell them. No, no, no. The magic in any sales process is that you’re always curious. That’s what a five-year-old does. They wanna understand everything they can about why your answer is no or yes.
George: In the last six months I had this experience. Sales rep joins our organization, comes out of the gates flying. They are in the top 75th percentile. Like they’re doing a great job. And then as always seems to happen, the performance drops off and then month two, the performance is still dropped, and then month three they asked for help. And I was the one that this individual came to. He says, I need some one-on-one coaching. So we sat down and I’d listened to a couple of calls and I realized that they were rushing right into this is the solution to your problem without spending the time on clearly understanding the problem. And I asked the question and they said, oh, well, I know what their problem is. I said, the issue though is when you were successful, you were spending the time going through the needs analysis. Now you’re just rushing right to solution. And by the way, he was right that he did know what the solution of the problem was, but the buyer wouldn’t buy because he hadn’t spent that time establishing the trust and seeking to understand and doing customer needs analysis. We see this all the time, don’t we?
Cindy: 100%. And this is something that I ran into a seasoned sales pros a lot as a coach and I know you do too where they think, but I know the answer because I’ve heard it 1,000 times. And a lot of the phrasing that I’ll use with coaches is I’ll say, but you need to be curious like a five-year-old. Pretend that you’ve never heard this. Pretend that this is the time it’s gonna be different and stick with those questions. And in the book, I talk about my talk model which is trust, ask questions, link it to the solutions after all of that, and then get the commitment and keep the conversation going. And they do. The season sales pros start to cut corners and they think, oh, but I already know the answer. It doesn’t matter if you know the answer, it matters if the prospect knows the answer and your job is to help them arrive at that.
The 5 Steps in Becoming a Better Salesperson
George: It’s connect the dots. One of my favorite scenes in a movie is Jerry Maguire where Jerry Maguire talks about where he’s at his best as that sports agent it’s in the living room, connecting the family and connecting the team and putting together the very best deal for that young athlete. And that’s our job is the tour guide is to help the prospect arrive at what good might look like. Let’s unpack your five steps because I love the fact that… Well, first I love there’s only five because the one reason why I know you’ve been successful is you make this stuff simple, but let’s go through the five steps.
Cindy: Yeah, so the first step is obviously planning, but what’s funny and I know this as well, working with sales folks is that’s often the most skipped step, especially if you become a seasoned pro because you’re like, but I already know what I’m gonna say. I already know the questions I’m gonna ask. I already know the objections. And my question is always, do you? What makes you 100% sure this conversation is not gonna take a left-hand turn? So the planning piece, but I think it’s also about knowing what you want. What are the questions that you wanna ask? And it’s a way to keep yourself on track as a salesperson too, but that’s really the larger scale even for planning strategically for your sales career. Do you know what you want? Do you know your sales funnel? Do you know how many appointments it’s gonna take to get a deal, to get one to close? And a lot of salespeople, especially seasoned ones abandon the sales funnel. So there are so many different pieces where it’s like for the individual as well as for the prospect or client, planning. The second step is once you’ve got that plan in place, you start looking for those opportunities. And if you have a solid plan, you’ll recognize the opportunities are literally everywhere but so often you don’t have a good plan. So you don’t see them and you’re not prepared when it actually comes up. And one of the examples that I talk about in my book, friends, the TV show has gotten this resurgence lately. All my nieces and nephews are into this. I’m like, that was my era. But I talk about Gunther, who was the coffee shop manager. That was a complete and total by the chance opportunity for him. He was an extra on the show. One day they were asking, does anybody know how to work this machine? Does anybody know how this works? He raised his hand. He was ready for the opportunity. And he kept that job for 10 years. So he had a good plan in place. So you gotta be able to do that. And as a salesperson, I also truly believe that once you start knowing what you’re looking for, it’s like blue cars, right? You buy a blue car and then you see them everywhere. The same thing with sales, when you know what your prospect looks like, you’re kind of start spotting them. So that’s the second step. And I also believe for salespeople, they don’t actively seek them as much as they get more seasoned. And I’m sure you run into that with people that you’re coaching.
George: Well, I love the five steps and you’re absolutely right in the blue car analogy. It’s success happens as you get success. So as soon as you get that first win it seems, oh, now when it comes in threes we’ve all used that term, but it’s more around that mindset and following that plan. So I love that you lay it out that simply. Let’s move on to your other two steps that are covered in the book.
Cindy: So the biggest step, and I think this is sort of the full promo of the sales process is listening and establishing trust. And this is literally what we were just talking about, where salespeople stop doing this. You stop listening. You stop trying to establish that trust. And I believe that a lot of salespeople are seasoned, nonseasoned, they confuse rapport and trust. I can like you. I can have a great rapport with you. I can go play golf with you. I can go have a cup of coffee with you, and still not trust you with the challenges of my business or of what I’m dealing with in my job. You have to get to that level of trust and overcoming whatever fears they have about showing their vulnerability. And the only way you’re gonna do that is listening. That’s step three.
The Sympathy Sale: You Have to ASK
George: I’ve got to tell you a great story.
George: We used to call that the sympathy sale. In the media business, you get 20 people calling the same clients. You get some TV reps, get some radio reps, get some newspaper reps and you start to build rapport with the prospect and you get a $500 order. But you know their budget is 50,000 a month. You got the order because they liked going for lunch and they think you’re a good person, but you have done nothing to establish the trust in your organization or the fact that you know what their problems are. So we gotta be careful of that. I had a rep the other day, they’re like, yeah, the client really likes me. I said, yeah, but our net promoter score is a three. So the fact that they like you, the good news is maybe we can get them on the phone to solve the problem. But we’re in the transaction because it’s a business transaction. There’s gotta be some sort of business outcome. So establishing trust. And then I love this next one because again, young rep sitting down and you’re doing the one-on-one. They go, yeah why am I not getting any business? I’m like, you have not asked for the business.
Cindy: Yes, yes. And it goes directly to what you actually just said where they think they’re in this place where it’s like, well, they know why I’m there. I took them to lunch again. They know why I’m there. Do they? Because they think you took them to lunch. Like that’s why they think you were there. Have you actually invited them to do business with you? And I often will joke and I say, look, we live in a question and answer world. If there are any married people listening to this podcast right now, someone asks someone a question. You didn’t both just show up one day and be like, So, is today a good day? You liked each other. You had a good rapport. You didn’t have that question in the answer to be able to actually move the relationship to the next level. And I actually often times will call it the friend zone. You’re stuck in the friend zone with a $500 deal. Do you actually want a relationship or do you want a transaction ship? You have to ask.
George: And in the ask, I’ll never forget this, a sales manager. He said, sometimes just walk behind the desk and punch the guy on the shoulder and say, sign it, you need this thing. So that’s old school, but what is this concept of assuming that you’re going to do business together and make it a part of the sales process? So the ask is it doesn’t have to be as blunt as that. Although sometimes just ask, they’re waiting for you to ask, but also is there a way to layer it in as you go through the other steps?
Cindy: Absolutely. And I think the ask actually begins at the very beginning of the conversation. They need to know that there’s going to be an ask at some point. And I think that a lot of people struggle with that because they think, oh, well, I have to show them all of this stuff. If you’re actually having a sales conversation, you’re not showing anything. You’re asking questions and you’re inviting them to share with you and you’re dropping what I call bread crumbs along the way of like, oh, you need this? Yeah, we actually have a solution to that. But tell me more about X and you get them through that. And so by the end, the ask is almost like they’re asking you. They’re like, well, how do we do this? Because they’re realizing you have a solution to those needs that you’ve uncovered. But this is also where a lot of seasons sales pros mess up because they haven’t dropped breadcrumbs along the way. They haven’t layered it into the conversation. It was very one way. It was almost like an interrogation. They’re firing these questions at this prospect. They’re answering them. And then at the end, it’s like, okay, well, I’ll send you my follow-up agreement and you’ll sign it. It needs to be a give and take. It’s a dialogue, not a diatribe. And getting them to that part where, okay, they’re seeing you as the solution. And then you ask in a way that says, let me understand that this is the L part of the TALK model linking it together. Here are the things I’ve uncovered. Here are all the things we can do to help. Here’s the stuff we can’t do. I think it’s also important to say, here are the things we can’t do. And then that’s the part where you say, I’d like to help you with these things. Would you like our help?
George: I’m glad you brought that up ’cause I was going to ask the question. It’s okay to say no, isn’t it?
Cindy: A 100%. And I actually think it lends itself to more credibility for you when you honestly say we’re not a fit.
George: Cindy, but I don’t wanna say no, it’s negative. I wanna keep the conversation positive. I wanna keep moving that prospect towards a yes, but there’s a massive risk in that. Isn’t there?
Cindy: There’s a huge risk and you’re actually gonna damage the relationship. And the thing that salespeople I think could really embrace is remembering that every interaction is a transaction to a degree. And you’re creating a walking commercial from your conversation. Whether it’s a yes or no to do business with you, you now have this minion that’s out in the universe to talk about you and talk about what’s good and what’s bad. You have to leave them with the best possible commercial on replay about this interaction. And sometimes it is literally saying, you know what? We’re not a good fit for you. Who do you know that could benefit from this? And they become your best referral source.
George: It is amazing that you say that. We had Jerry Acuff on the show here or two months ago. And he talked about basically the takeaway close. If you go back to old-school closing tactics, but the ability to say, I don’t necessarily think this is a fit. And maybe there’s another solution that I’ll offer to you. And a lot of times you’ll almost have that prospect clamoring to do business with you because you positioned it that I might not be the right thing. So having that power, it actually is a powerful position. And I’ll tell you, we’ve been running into this with a lot of young sellers. They feel that it’s a position of weakness, but it actually becomes a position of strength and the situation might change. So now you can still go back through that door. We’ve got number five though, of your five-step plan from the book. I don’t wanna miss out on number five ’cause I think it’s really powe
Cindy: Well, it’s funny because it actually goes directly to what you just said it’s about the follow-up. Follow up and follow up with gratitude. And I do believe that whether the answer is yes, no or the dreaded maybe which is the worst one. I think you still follow up with that gratitude and you let them know you appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation and you stay in touch. You don’t become that stalker. You’re not calling them every week, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t be a referral source for you. They are a walking commercial out there in the universe is our job to make sure we stay top of mind. But I also think this is true for clients’ past clients as well, letting them know how they impacted you as a salesperson. I still keep in touch with some of my very, very first clients that I ever had. If something cool happens, I’ll email her or call and be like, guess what happened? Remember this person we met 13 years ago and I let them know because again, these are folks that wanna see you succeed. They’ve helped you along the way, and they want to have your back and they wanna share in our successes. And so following up and showing them that gratitude, I think is one of the best gifts you can give. But it also starts the sales cycle all over again.
George: I had this just happened this week, a gentleman that I had worked with in the media business and we were competitors. We would get together on a Friday and have a beer and give each other the gears as to who sold the most during that time. And then he went on to other roles and I went on to other roles and lo behold, I get a phone call out of the blue saying, “Hey, I’ve been watching you and my organization needs you.” Was the exact piece. And we’d always had a good relationship. Could they say we’re friends? Sure, we were kind of friends. I don’t know if I go that far, but it was always… It’s that old story of scorched earth and only worked for Napoleon, right? And maybe a little bit it worked in the Second World War, but it definitely doesn’t work at sales ’cause if you burn that bridge, you can never go back over it. And you never know when the customer might be ready to move forward. I love those and I love the color around those five steps. The other thing that I wanted to cover off here is going back to that view of the plan. Because when I read through the book, you really talk a lot about planning. And I love the idea of planning being at the beginning and one of the most important pieces because as you mentioned, it’s not just the rookie that needs to learn how to build the plan. It’s the veteran too that has forgotten to plan. It seems to be across any length or tenure of sales.
Cindy: Yeah. It’s true. And it’s funny because, in the coaching that we do, we end up with a lot of senior sales reps who have plateaued, right? They have this great like the guy that you’re coaching and your associate. They plateau and then they’re like, but I’m still doing the same thing that I was, why isn’t it working? Because you’re still doing the same thing you were, what’s your plan, what’s your pivot? And so I think what I would invite most of your listeners to do is revamp their plan if they haven’t already. And if they don’t have one, they need to write one, but it starts with what you want. And for salespeople, we wanna win. We wanna win. We wanna be able to put the scores on the board, but it’s other things like what kind of clients do you want? What do you want your life balance to look like within this? Do you want a bunch of clients that send you $500 deals and you need 50 of those? Or do you want clients to send you $50,000 deals and you need five of those and it changes your tactics and your strategy based on that plan? And I think so many salespeople knew or tenured, just go. They’re in motion. It’s like, here’s our target list. You’re a target, you’re a target. Well, if you look at it that way, there are 7 billion targets on the planet ’cause everybody is. Is it the right partnership for you? You don’t know that until you sit down and you look at this plan. And then you start to develop your sales process, your centers of influence, and it all dictates your daily activity from starting from that one spot of going, this is where I wanna be by the state.
Ruthless Prioritization: Understanding Your Capacity and Capabilities
George: Our CEO, Brendan King has a great line that he started to use a few years back. He said, “I can get more money.” We’ve been quite successful at raising venture capital money to grow our organization. I can find more people. We’ve actually been able to find amazing talent. We fly them in from all over the world and hire people. That’s great. But what I can’t get more of is time, and what you’re speaking about is making sure that those hours, whatever it might be that you’re investing are the very best use of your time. It’s hard to picture that in the early days when you’re just trying to figure it out, but as you become more seasoned, I find that that is a skill that ruthless prioritization is something that really need to cover. You mentioned it off the top and I wanted to hear this from you and get your view on it. When did you realize that sales was the noble profession that you believe that it is and something that you really wanted to sink your teeth into?
Cindy: So it was about six to eight months when I was in that sales role. And I realized that I was good at it because I was a listener. ‘Cause I kept thinking I had to be like the sales guys on the team who were, they were quick on their feet. They were funny. And I’m like, I’m not that person. I’m from the south, I’m really nice. I don’t know how to do that. And when I realized I was having success because I was listening to people and I was good at listening to their problems and trying to find solutions, whether we had one or not, I would try to figure it out. And then when we didn’t have a solution like we said, I would go back and say, we can’t fix this but we can fix this. And once I started recognizing that, I have literally been doing this my entire life. I am the friend that somebody will come to and ask for advice. I’m like, oh, I don’t have this, but I can help is. Oh, I know this person over here. I love connecting people on a total alcoholic. And that’s what I had that moment of going, why didn’t anybody tell me? I have three degrees in communication. Why didn’t I learn this? And so that’s what truly led me to write the book, because I said, I have seven higher education years of learning communication and I did not learn what is in 241 pages. I have to tell people this, they have to know the secret.
George: Well, that is very passionate and I love it because it is exactly the way that I feel about this very noble profession that we’ve embraced and that our listeners have embraced, or they wouldn’t be tuning in to the Conquer Local Podcast on a weekly basis. I was expecting very big things from this episode. Thank you for exceeding those expectations, Cindy, that’s fantastic. And I highly recommend the book, even for somebody that’s been doing it as long as I have. And some people tell you I’ve been doing it too long. I definitely learned something from those pages and the way that you put it together. So succinctly into those five steps, I believe that anybody could take that and start to find some benefit from it. We’re gonna put all the ways to communicate and to reach out to Dr. Cindy in the show notes. And thank you very much for joining us. Once again we appreciate your time today.
Cindy: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
George: Well, that is infectious energy right there. I’m fired up and I’m halfway through my day, but Cindy, listen, these five steps they’re so simple, but yet we run across wraps. And as you noticed, each of us had stories throughout the episode where this just happened yesterday. Planning. That first step. Plan the work, work the plan. How many times have you heard that? But we actually have to do it. And we have to constantly go back to the plan and innovate that plan because everything changes. The only thing constant is change actually. So a plan that you have set out maybe a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, it might not be serving you today if we don’t go back and have a look at that thing. Plus on the planning side, you might just not even have a plan. So we need to be thinking about that. Look for opportunities. It’s that whole having your head on a swivel and keeping your eye oh, moving salesmen attracts business. But more, you’re always open for what an opportunity might be. It’s a glass-half-full kind of mindset where you’re looking for those opportunities and go back to what she said. Five-year-old your inner five-year-old, that’s the best salesperson in the world. They’re asking lots of questions. They’re trying to understand. They’re actually maybe physically going through the steps of learning. Listening and establishing trust. Well, there are all sorts of tools out there that’ll tell you that you’re talking too much, not listening enough. This is a common problem that salespeople have. And the more you do it, and the more you know what the plays are that’ll solve the problem, the more that you make this mistake. You need to be listening to that prospect. And it is a very important part of establishing trust. If all you do is stand there and pontificate, you’re not really understanding the customer and being obsessed about that customer and the challenges that they’re having. Now, we get down to asking for what you want. And Cindy covered that impeccably. You have to be prepared to ask. It is a commercial transaction. You are not a professional visitor. And the customer is only having the conversation with you because they expect some sort of commercial relationship. So this is why I always have a problem of I’m not here to sell you anything. You’re there to have a commercial relationship because as we mentioned, you don’t get a commission check for visiting. So part of asking and part of being prepared to say, I can’t solve that problem for you offer a suggestion of maybe someone that can, that’s all part of this five-step process. And then finally, it’s the follow-up. And Cindy calls it gratitude. And I think that that’s a really interesting lens on the follow-up. Thank you for your time today. I appreciate you taking 45 minutes out of your valuable schedule, I learned a lot. Let me cover off some of the things that I remember from our meeting, and I wanna make sure that we’re still on the same page. You said that you weren’t ready to move forward today. So I’ve diarized, I’m gonna get back to you in two weeks’ time. That’s what we’re talking about. That level of follow-up acknowledgment that you listened to the prospect, whether there was a fit or not, because remember people buy when they’re ready and continuing to have that follow-up. It’s called touch base or check-in. I like there to be more to it than that, where you actually deliver some value when you do the follow-up. And it’s great to have gratitude. In fact, what gratitude will give you is the opportunity for the holy grail in sales, which is a referral. And gratitude can go like this. I really appreciate the opportunity to work with you. I’m glad that you’re finding value from the solutions that we’re providing. Is there anyone else in your sphere of influence that we might be able to help? Just keep that in mind, maybe you offer a referral, bonus, or something like that, but by having that level of gratitude at the end of those five steps, will give you the opportunity to maybe get that referral or maybe get that upsell or a larger relationship with the client. So thanks to Dr. Cindy for joining us today, reminding us of the five-year-olds are the best salespeople on the planet. And oh, I love the big takeaway. Tommy two thumbs comes waltzing across the car lot. Hey, I can help you out. What are you looking for? That was Dr. Cindy McGovern, our guest this week on the Conquer Local Podcast. My name is George Leith. Hey, I’ll see you when I see you.